Curse

Legendary Battousai · Sep 09, 2007, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Thats horrible logic, if A, B, or C does not work for you to rally a team, then magic happens and you get one. There is NO other game where you can call Computer AI to aid you in competition. If this is how the game is actually going to stay, people might as well return to Starcraft 1, and Counter Strike.

So how were games first made if there were NO other game to steal ideas from.

Servant of Kali · Sep 09, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

99.99% of caster spikes are nerfed...LOL and if they was one invented that worked in Ha or GvG besides smite ball and OG blood spike(which are by the way very ineffective), then it will be nerfed royally. Lol shows how much you know about the game little one. the counters been nerfed lol.

Who the f was talking about spikes?

Stop putting the words in my mouth and then using that as an argument how I know little about the game, please.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 09, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Who the f was talking about spikes?

Stop putting the words in my mouth and then using that as an argument how I know little about the game, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Play with casters then? Blindbots Wards Aegis SoD and Guardian as well as DA don't hurt casters. If everyone is playing with 2 warriors 2 paragons (or 1P 1R) then what's wrong with bringing counters? It's how metagame should work. Nothing stops you from countering their meta. Some are actually doing it already with dual dom mesmers for instance.

Running casters and no melee. How else will you kill if your not spiking.

KebabVan · Sep 09, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

he means instead of 4 melee (2 paras), run 2 mesmers or fire eles or whatever.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 09, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by KebabVan

he means instead of 4 melee (2 paras), run 2 mesmers or fire eles or whatever.

Doesnt matter, the defensive build effects any melee, no matter the number, which effectively shuts you down. If you only had 2 warriors - you still wont kill a team with that much defense, even if you traded both paras for casters.

Andrew Patrick · Sep 10, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

Andrew Patrick, out of all people, as my "PvP PR", should understand that and agree.

Please don't mistake my willingness to listen to and respect multiple points of view as me disagreeing with yours. For the record, it is not my job to agree with anyone and/or everyone since that would, inevitably, cause me to fulfill that role to only some of the people in a two-sided argument at any given time. Rather, I need to be open to, understand, and relay any rational point of view I come across.

Like I have said dozens of times, I can see both sides of this argument. I was not trying to choose sides, I was simply pointing out that some of you are blatantly and perhaps deliberately side-stepping some of the points others are making. I see post after post of people saying they are against heroes in PvP simply because they do not feel NPCs should be used in place of human players to which they receive the response "nerf the build, not the ability to use heroes." That argument has nothing to do with what the other people are saying...I was simply asking people to please read each others posts' more thoroughly so everyone was on the same page.

There are two issues here. 1. Some people feel heroes give an advantage on certain build types and 2. Some people do not want to fight against or along-side AI in place of humans in high-end PvP. Please know which you are responding to, and preferably, try to find a response that addresses both issues.

Servant of Kali · Sep 10, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

There are two issues here. 1. Some people feel heroes give an advantage on certain build types and 2. Some people do not want to fight against or along-side AI in place of humans in high-end PvP. Please know which you are responding to, and preferably, try to find a response that addresses both issues.

I'd just like to note that IMO huge majority is against Heroes because they are AI, not because they are overpowered (I think this thread supports that from what I've seen). A hero build being overpowered is just a salt on the wound, it magnifies the problem, but that's about all. The core problem is AI.

Quite frankly, I can deal with occasional team running Tahlkora once upon a blue moon, and honestly speaking, it doesn't destroy my fun because I know enemy guild took it because they missed a player (and they didn't replace him with overpowered hero build). On the other hand, current situation is out of hand, everyone is using heroway on purpose. There are so many teams with heroes it really kills the point in playing, especially since non-top guilds can easily lose to such builds under 5 minute. Despite of what some people in this thread will say, looking at the game overall I don't think ANet caters only to top50 guilds, far from that. Especially since top50 guilds contain 0,00001% of PvP playerbase. For everyone else, it really sucks to play against well built heroway who can execute well. And it sucks even more to lose. It's not rewarding to win either, so there's a lose-lose situation.

I keep my opinion - there are ways to solve underpopulation in GvG (check official Wiki if you still didnt, Overpowered skills section..). Heroes are a cure worse than the disease.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

Doesnt matter, the defensive build effects any melee, no matter the number, which effectively shuts you down. If you only had 2 warriors - you still wont kill a team with that much defense, even if you traded both paras for casters.

Not really. You need 1 melee which will pressure enemy team enough to make them wonder whether they should use exclusive anti-melee skills or not (Ward Against Melee, Aegis, etc). For the rest (not talking about hexes here), you can use casters successfully and everything non melee (spirits count in too). I've used 1-melee build in GvG successfully in Factions, so it can work.

I feel you don't even understand what I've talking about BTW, just like with the rest of the thread.

Also, as I said before (I hate when I have to repeat myself because people are too lazy to think) - the addition to this is proper game balance, so that some caster skills aren't so horribly useless in terms of damage when compared to melee auto-attacks. No, I'm not talking about buffing a spellto do 200dmg in 1sec, i posted a lot of proposals around.

I find it sad that people forgot how to play with casters, even though I can't blame them since a lot of caster skills blow. Still, that's no excuse to say "I'll keep playing 2 warriors 2 paragons as long as the world lasts". Put in more casters, as simple as that. Hardly anyone in the game uses any anti-caster stuff (except on monk occasionally). I mean, compared to Ward Against Melee, when did you see Ward against Elements or something like that? I see so many guilds copying top guilds, and not even understanding the metagame. It amazes me to no end.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 10, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

I'd just like to note that IMO huge majority is against Heroes because they are AI, not because they are overpowered (I think this thread supports that from what I've seen). A hero build being overpowered is just a salt on the wound, it magnifies the problem, but that's about all. The core problem is AI.

Quite frankly, I can deal with occasional team running Tahlkora once upon a blue moon, and honestly speaking, it doesn't destroy my fun because I know enemy guild took it because they missed a player (and they didn't replace him with overpowered hero build). On the other hand, current situation is out of hand, everyone is using heroway on purpose. There are so many teams with heroes it really kills the point in playing, especially since non-top guilds can easily lose to such builds under 5 minute. Despite of what some people in this thread will say, looking at the game overall I don't think ANet caters only to top50 guilds, far from that. Especially since top50 guilds contain 0,00001% of PvP playerbase. For everyone else, it really sucks to play against well built heroway who can execute well. And it sucks even more to lose. It's not rewarding to win either, so there's a lose-lose situation.

I keep my opinion - there are ways to solve underpopulation in GvG (check official Wiki if you still didnt, Overpowered skills section..). Heroes are a cure worse than the disease.

Not really. You need 1 melee which will pressure enemy team enough to make them wonder whether they should use exclusive anti-melee skills or not (Ward Against Melee, Aegis, etc). For the rest (not talking about hexes here), you can use casters successfully and everything non melee (spirits count in too). I've used 1-melee build in GvG successfully in Factions, so it can work.

I feel you don't even understand what I've talking about BTW, just like with the rest of the thread.

Also, as I said before (I hate when I have to repeat myself because people are too lazy to think) - the addition to this is proper game balance, so that some caster skills aren't so horribly useless in terms of damage when compared to melee auto-attacks. No, I'm not talking about buffing a spellto do 200dmg in 1sec, i posted a lot of proposals around.

I find it sad that people forgot how to play with casters, even though I can't blame them since a lot of caster skills blow. Still, that's no excuse to say "I'll keep playing 2 warriors 2 paragons as long as the world lasts". Put in more casters, as simple as that. Hardly anyone in the game uses any anti-caster stuff (except on monk occasionally). I mean, compared to Ward Against Melee, when did you see Ward against Elements or something like that? I see so many guilds copying top guilds, and not even understanding the metagame. It amazes me to no end.

Ok so how about you run one of these 1 warrior builds and see how you do? The thing is, you wont even reach the top 300 unless you are running eurospike (teleporting warrior) The thing is, they dont work. Unless the teams you are facing are retarded, you probably will not be killing. Your only source of deep wound, being the warrior, will probably never get off.

Andrew, people dont play heroes in high end pvp. It is only bad HA teams, and bad gvg teams. So where is the issue of it being in high end pvp?

Shmanka · Sep 10, 2007, 10:03 PM // 22:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

Ok so how about you run one of these 1 warrior builds and see how you do? The thing is, you wont even reach the top 300 unless you are running eurospike (teleporting warrior) The thing is, they dont work.

Umm to counter your point GANK got to R47 using 1 conjure axe warrior and alot of defensive mechanics.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 10, 2007, 10:27 PM // 22:27

GANK also almost got flawlessed by heroway...

wuzzman · Sep 10, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

I'd just like to note that IMO huge majority is against Heroes because they are AI, not because they are overpowered (I think this thread supports that from what I've seen). A hero build being overpowered is just a salt on the wound, it magnifies the problem, but that's about all. The core problem is AI.

Quite frankly, I can deal with occasional team running Tahlkora once upon a blue moon, and honestly speaking, it doesn't destroy my fun because I know enemy guild took it because they missed a player (and they didn't replace him with overpowered hero build). On the other hand, current situation is out of hand, everyone is using heroway on purpose. There are so many teams with heroes it really kills the point in playing, especially since non-top guilds can easily lose to such builds under 5 minute. Despite of what some people in this thread will say, looking at the game overall I don't think ANet caters only to top50 guilds, far from that. Especially since top50 guilds contain 0,00001% of PvP playerbase. For everyone else, it really sucks to play against well built heroway who can execute well. And it sucks even more to lose. It's not rewarding to win either, so there's a lose-lose situation.

I keep my opinion - there are ways to solve underpopulation in GvG (check official Wiki if you still didnt, Overpowered skills section..). Heroes are a cure worse than the disease.

Not really. You need 1 melee which will pressure enemy team enough to make them wonder whether they should use exclusive anti-melee skills or not (Ward Against Melee, Aegis, etc). For the rest (not talking about hexes here), you can use casters successfully and everything non melee (spirits count in too). I've used 1-melee build in GvG successfully in Factions, so it can work.

I feel you don't even understand what I've talking about BTW, just like with the rest of the thread.

Also, as I said before (I hate when I have to repeat myself because people are too lazy to think) - the addition to this is proper game balance, so that some caster skills aren't so horribly useless in terms of damage when compared to melee auto-attacks. No, I'm not talking about buffing a spellto do 200dmg in 1sec, i posted a lot of proposals around.

I find it sad that people forgot how to play with casters, even though I can't blame them since a lot of caster skills blow. Still, that's no excuse to say "I'll keep playing 2 warriors 2 paragons as long as the world lasts". Put in more casters, as simple as that. Hardly anyone in the game uses any anti-caster stuff (except on monk occasionally). I mean, compared to Ward Against Melee, when did you see Ward against Elements or something like that? I see so many guilds copying top guilds, and not even understanding the metagame. It amazes me to no end.

caster pressure??? lol I hope to god thats not what you mean...maybe if you was talking about shutdown...but there is 90% chance your not.

Winterclaw · Sep 11, 2007, 12:31 AM // 00:31

Question from someone who doesn't pvp all that much: why are heroes and their bad AI such a problem? There's only a few things they can do reasonably well. I say as long as there are at least 4 players, let them in.

Snow Bunny · Sep 11, 2007, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Question from someone who doesn't pvp all that much: why are heroes and their bad AI such a problem? There's only a few things they can do reasonably well. I say as long as there are at least 4 players, let them in.

Mmmm....it's not so much what they can do.

It's just not enjoyable, and it defeats the purpose of high-end GvG.

Plus....you should watch Olias and MoW as Healers/Necros. They don't have lag and are exeptional at high-end micromanagement. That's why MoW/Olias is such a good choice for a Jagged Bones mm, much more so than a human. He knows exactly what his minions have for degen/when they need healing/when they need Jagged.

Finally....heroes have no lag.

But I just hate playing against them, and Kenshin should stop shoveling out the "Hate the build" argument.

Servant of Kali · Sep 11, 2007, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Ok so how about you run one of these 1 warrior builds and see how you do? The thing is, you wont even reach the top 300 unless you are running eurospike (teleporting warrior)

I'm not talking about theory.

I played 1 warrior build before. A guild who was #500 (running balanced at the time) got to top200 with that 1-warrior build. There was no spike really (team didn't use Vent at all, long story). So yeah, it's possible if you know how to counter metagame, if you're good at strategy, and if your team can execute the idea well.

Quote:

caster pressure??? lol I hope to god thats not what you mean...maybe if you was talking about shutdown...but there is 90% chance your not.

Caster pressure includes everything but spike, that's what I meant there. So yeah, shutdown included.

But as I said, there's also a reason why caster pressure ain't the first choice out there, because most spells kinda suck compared to auto-attacking warrior using no skills. In short, I completely understand your concerns, and I vouch for buffing some of the spells to make them viable (but not spike-viable).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Question from someone who doesn't pvp all that much

Question from someone who spent a lot of time posting in this thread: is it so hard for new people to randomly open 1 page and read few posts? I mean, this whole thread is an answer to your question

If you have just read my 2nd post on this page, nothing else, you'd get the answer.

In short, people don't buy online games to PvP against AI. PvE is different, PvE works, but PvP doesn't. If I wanted to PvP against AI I would've played Diablo, Heroes of Might n Magic, Age of Empires, Jagged Alliance etc. Regardless of the fact that some of these aint RPGs, they are still more enjoyable vs AI than GvG is.

You have to understand that I didn't buy this game for PvE (don't get me wrong, I liked PvE in Prophecies). I like to PvP. As simple as that. PvE I do in 2 days, finish the story, cool, but that's all. PvP has replayability factor. Against real people. PvE and AI-PvP does not. There is no thrill in killing zillion of Oliases. If I wanted to do that I'd play Diablo and at least get some drops, or just play GW PvE and get some drops.

Keep in mind that GW PvP has zero rewards for casual player (99,999% of PvP playerbase). So, if I win against heroway, what do I get? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. If i win vs other players, win or lose, at least I had some fun. Vs heroway, I had no fun, and I had no drops. No gold, no items, no fancy armor, nothing. If i got a compensation of 20 Cupcakes each time I play against heroway (win or lose) I miiiight get over it, but right now it's absolutely useless to fight heroes (win or lose).

Despozblehero · Sep 11, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Question from someone who doesn't pvp all that much: why are heroes and their bad AI such a problem? There's only a few things they can do reasonably well. I say as long as there are at least 4 players, let them in.

My humble opinions. 1st: If you gave an AI the same skills as say a charr, its going to do what a charr will do (totally simplified example just trying to get the idea across), and if i wanted that id go kill charr instead of PvP right?
2nd:Well AI will never learn to play better, will never tell you or your team something useful, wont start doing new things, and can cut out new things instead of add them. Why would a new player try to go for 8 people when theyd probably get beaten by 4 people of their skill level and some Heros ONLY because the other team has some insane minion bombs coming off the MoW or something like that that no REAL person on the other team could ever do (yeah thats gotta be great to the new players ego btw lol). So in the end it cripples new players coming in to rely on Heros.
3rd: Its just a few real players working around or with AI, and me and my 8 person team have to put out the effort to kill AI and work for it (even when you roll them someones got to be on hero duty to shut their spam down...so fun*cough*...). So in the end I just beat or lost to a PvE mob (AI) and a couple real people, and will have to fight the same PvE mob again and again in PvP because people will continue to use whatever effective PvE mob they can get if its easy (human nature I suppose). 8 people teams and 2-6 people and Hero teams are not the same thing.

lordgambit · Sep 11, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

2. Some people do not want to fight against or along-side AI in place of humans in high-end PvP.

I believe that people are not going to be able to convince that the other side, its a matter of choice. Some people truly enjoying facing another team of 8 players. Some people enjoy on working with heros and creating builds for them.

A solution would have been a true PvP GvG, with just players (please archers, etc are not heros) and one that is open, to heros. Hero Battles could have been that, a team based hero battles, which would give it even more diversity, and would allow 8 real player or 2 player with 3 heros and etc. I do believe its really late to implement a new system to make sure both sides can continue to enjoy the game.

Polls like this should be done in-game, with in-game the developers would have access to the players background and could value the outcome of the poll better. For example:
A poll to change a map in HA you could analyse how many came from players that have never done HA, versus how many votes came from people that play HA on a daily basis. Hopefully something like this will be implemented in GW2 to allow them to get better feedback from us.

I tried my best not to flame anyone, please dont insult me. I am agree that both sides have valid points...

I personally prefer all human parties, but I also prefer HA... I know most people believe that HA is a beneth GvG, I dont but...

Going a little offtopic, some people have that a lot of the PvPers have left the game, all for different reasons, but from my experience when HA passed its trial when it went 6v6, and new victory conditions, with the addition of heros HA went downhill, a lot of people left or stopped playing HA. I believe the lessoned learned from that is changes to current PvP has to be in stages, and very small steps.

Another point someone raised was what is in it for doing PvP? Which is an intersting question, why would do you HA nowdays? It no longer controls favor, a lot of the items that HA only now drop from chests... That also takes a few players away from that part of PvP.

I know I got a little offtopic, sorry...

Servant of Kali · Sep 11, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordgambit

I believe that people are not going to be able to convince that the other side, its a matter of choice. Some people truly enjoying facing another team of 8 players. Some people enjoy on working with heros and creating builds for them.

*yawn*

There is NOTHING wrong with people who like creating builds for heroes and using them. There's an entire PvP arena for it, called Hero Battles. There's 99% of game areas for it, called PvE.

People in this thread are asking to have 0,1% of game areas AI-FREE as much as possible. Is this so much to ask for? People in this thread are asking not to be forced to play against AI.
Why is this difficult to understand? If i wanted to play with AI and against AI i'd play PvE or HB. Since I'm playing GvG/RA/TA/FA, and don't even touch HB and PvE, it's obvious I don't want AI.

Quote:

Polls like this should be done in-game, with in-game the developers would have access to the players

If game developer needs a poll on this issue then that is very very sad.

Quote:

Hopefully something like this will be implemented in GW2 to allow them to get better feedback from us.

I've seen enough in GW1 to convince me that GW2 will be WoW-like game all the way, and PvP will be a joke. I have no reason to believe that in GW2 ANet will take care of leechers, of AI, or do proper skill balances and avoid making skills overpowered in new expansions and half of the skills per expansion utterly useless so they can a) boast about new skills and b) not bother about tweaking those useless skills.

Winterclaw · Sep 12, 2007, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Thanks for the responses guys; Kali there are a whole lotta posts on these boards and I don't spend too much time in the PvP section. I can't read it all.

Edit: Just to look at it from another angle, aren't Heroes AI plus a little bit of human skills as well?

wuzzman · Sep 12, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

this is a brainless discussion. Removing heros from pvp will do nothing for it except make more players stop playing. Yes thats what we need more inactive top guilds, more "No opposing party" messages when people win halls.

Despozblehero · Sep 12, 2007, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

this is a brainless discussion. Removing heros from pvp will do nothing for it except make more players stop playing. Yes thats what we need more inactive top guilds, more "No opposing party" messages when people win halls.

Ok so WHY are players not playing in PvP? Identify that, then deal with that problem no band-aids please(*cough*Heros*cough). WHAT is it that will drive people away from PvP forever after Hero's leave HA/GvG (and not maybe to the HvH arena where they can make constructive suggestions to better that for that type of player if it really suxxorz so bad)? IMHO Heros Hurt PvP and drove more players away then banning them from it ever will, and if you consider the point farmers real PvPers, well you do realize once they get their Bambi theyll never be back...